Comments on: Where did the highway begin?

By: StevenR

StevenR — Tue, 21 Aug 2007 01:39:17 +0000

maybe the “crumbling and decaying Calvinism” is odd - while I have certain thoughts when I think of Calvinism, would Murray have that same thought? when I think Calvin, I think of the depravity of mankind and limited attonement. But would Murray have thought that? After all, Calvinism is also predestination and irresistible grace, which various Universalists definitely did believe.
Does this fit with Murray?

1770 is very unlikely - it sounds like a charge to other ministers, it mentions “America, your new country”. Does this sound like he was preaching to Potter and friends in the pre-revolutionary days?

Oh, Scott, one of the three volumes of Murray’s letters is in Google books!

By: Scott Wells

Scott Wells — Sat, 18 Aug 2007 15:52:59 +0000

@Jaume. Perhaps an oral tradition, but not likely. For one thing, there has not been a continuous local Universalist church, though the Murray Grove camp is there.

The reference to “crumbling and decaying Calvinism” — which the more I think of it doesn’t sound like Murray; he was more likely to use pointed rhetoric but be circumspect about particular targets — is found in more academic uses of the quotation, but not in the liturgical redaction found in the gray hymnal which is surely the only version some people have.

By: Jaume

Jaume — Sat, 18 Aug 2007 15:40:30 +0000

According to the murraygrove.org homepage, the quote is from 1770 (the “Potter sermon” then). Perhaps it comes from a local oral tradition? I have also run quite a few different searches and there are varieties of the quotes not always justified with ellipsis, e.g. the reference to “crumbling Calvinism” is sometimes missing.

I guess this research, when it’s over, could well have a place in some journal of UU history! ;-)

By: Scott Wells

Scott Wells — Sat, 18 Aug 2007 13:51:47 +0000

I don’t have them, and have only ever seen them at Congregational Library, Boston.

By: StevenR

StevenR — Sat, 18 Aug 2007 13:10:23 +0000

Jay Atkinson on the UUHS list checked his copy, the quote is there, but no source.

I believe that the quote reads as Charles Howe said ” charge to his fellow ministers” which would suggest either a circular letter or talk at a conference. He went to the 1804 in Philadelphia. Anyplace else? Scott, do you have or have seen the three volumes of John Murray letters (I see mentioned in Eddy), can we eliminate those?

By: Scott Wells

Scott Wells — Fri, 17 Aug 2007 02:29:39 +0000

I don’t have a copy of Cheetham’s Unitarians and Universalists — does anyone out there have a copy of this work and can check the citation?

By: StevenR

StevenR — Fri, 17 Aug 2007 01:44:08 +0000

Ron Stevens points me to Charles A. Howe’s THE LARGER FAITH (1993) , which quotes the passage.
The references states ” Henry Cheetham, “Unitarians and Universalists” (Boston: Beacon Press. 1962), p80, for the charge by John Murray to his fellow ministers.

By: Scott Wells

Scott Wells — Wed, 15 Aug 2007 22:38:38 +0000

Ask away –

By: StevenR

StevenR — Wed, 15 Aug 2007 22:24:04 +0000

I went behind you on Google books… hmmm….
– no source earlier than the 1980s?

while I doubt it will be fruitful, do you mind if i ask for you on the UU Historical Society chat list?

By: Shelby Meyerhoff

Shelby Meyerhoff — Tue, 14 Aug 2007 13:31:55 +0000

Dear Scott,

Thank you for the mention and for raising this question. If we knew more about the context in which Murray said these words, we could better understand his message.

Shelby