This is just part of the larger conversation all of us - religious liberals - are participating in … it’s good.

Shawn — feel free to continue. We’uns (for the lack of a large-sweep first person plural personal pronoun) don’t talk about these matters, and our shadowy relationships with the UCC.

Scott - sorry for the aside discussion. I’m done! :)

About Scott’s visit — Scott, I’m really interested in your criteria for finding a church. Back in the day, I attended Quaker meeting (unprogrammed) for three years, so I know which way I’d leap if I felt I had to leave UUism — but your criterion of being able to walk to church is very compelling too — I walk to church now and it is a powerful part of the worship experience somehow.

Your two categories of “horrible and not-horrible” are hilarious — but also sadly true. And we wonder why liberal churches are dying….

I also know that I have to belong to a church that has an essentially universalist (small “u”) theology — imagine you would too — so what about the new church?!

The cases I have witnessed have to do with the psychological examination/career assessment requirement. It (the final report) doesn’t get released to the UUA and the student switches boats.

One thing interested me in particular in this conversation (Shawn’s conversation, that is). This has to do with the folks who are encountering snags in the fellowshipping (or In-Care) process and transferring. I am curious as to what people see that seems so insurmountable. I can say from my own experience that, while the UU fellowshipping process was challenging, it was in no way insurmountable (and, yes, they knew of my Christianity when I was interviewed). I can also say that from my observation of the UCC process it does not seem to be any easier. I am not talking about my Dual Standing here. Dual-Standing is relatively simple because the UCC is basically accepting the UUA’s assesment of my skills, sanity, etc. and the fact of my serving a (at least partly) UCC congregation. I am thinking instead of family. My mother is a UCC minister and I remember her many requirements almost as well as I remember my own!

One final note: That new add drives my very liberal Mom crazy!

Shawn’s comment — and I’m not done reading it but the ad distracted me — made me consider something new. After all these years of brooding, I’m surprized I hadn’t thought of it. If it all-too-common for UU Christian ministers to hop to the UCC — and I’m thinking of a full transfer here, not dual standing as Adam commented on his blog — then how much easier it is for UCC ministers to jump to other denominations with which they share concordants. The Discples of Christ have an open door. The Evangelical Lutheran Church in America, the Presbyterian Church (USA) and the Reformed Church in America each have “orderly exchange of ministers of word and sacrament.” See this.

The UCC professors with whom I have shared intimate conversation with are quite disgusted with the condition of the UCC. Now, mind you, a few of these individuals are professors with serious ties to UCC national meetings/consultations in Cleveland. They are “on the organizational front lines,” so to speak. The denomination is often referred to as “hemorrhaging.” One professor even said, “Cleveland has no idea what it is even doing anymore,” when asked about the most recent “Ejector” advertisement. In fact, the prediction has been made that the “Ejector” ad will do more damage than good, at least when the number of new members it produces is contrasted with the ecumenical damage it is creating. More than a few UCC professors have even told me they would rather be in another church, and even named them in private conversations. What kind of churches were named? Let’s just say they would rather be in churches that have a much more stable theological and liturgical foundation. These individuals are not flakes. They are serious, mature professionals. They are simply very dissatisfied with the state of things.

The rate of decline in the UCC is expected to drop even further than the most recently released numbers indicate. The 2.38% drop reported by the 2006 Yearbook of Churches is expected to go even deeper, at least by folk ’round here. I was offered this information this morning. UCC’ers here have strong opinions why this drop is occurring, and they aren’t flattering.

The UCC also seems to be struggling as far as class boundness and race is concerned, at least if the experience and discourse here at LTS is an authentic indication. There is a huge struggle concerning the assimilation of ethnic minorities into the fold. What exactly is the struggle? Theology. Simply put, the invitation to minorities and the lower classes may be extended, but it can only be accepted by minorities and the lower classes if they agree to “become like us” religiously and theologically. It doesn’t work. We Unitarian Universalists know it doesn’t work from first hand experience. We know that if we are going to succeed as a denomination this must change. The UCC is facing the same exact issue.

Polity is another serious sticking point. It is supposed to be congregational, yet the national office is acting like it is … something else. Cleveland, according the conversations here at Lancaster, seems to think it can make any decision to which all the UUC congregations must bow, whether they like it or not. This seemingly forced “bow” is being accredited more to social/liberal politics than to an authentic quest for religious/theological diversity. The UCC homosexual issue is an example of policy at the national level being dictated to a large local level. This is not working out to well, given the UCC’s congregational polity. The total effects of the latest events coming out of Cleveland are still being processed and the outlook is not a bright one.

To summarize my point: We all have a lot of work to do. The UUC and the UUA both have a lot of work to do. The UCC is no organizational promised land. Religious liberals simply have a lot of work to do. I am hearing the same conversation and call from both organizations. Representative from the UCC are not happy with the state of the church.

Also, it is no small secret around here (Lancaster) that the migration of UUA students to the UCC usually has more to do with a student and his/her successful fulfillment of the UUA ministry requirements/process than it does with denominational preference. We have had our share of denominational switching, and the seminary is starting to wise up to the fact that serious questions should be asked of those students doing the switching. Most of the time - NOT ALL - the switch was a result of a snag in the students original process and its requirements.

The conversation is an incredible one, and is acted out most respectfully and maturely. It is a conversation wherein honest answers are being sought after. It is a a conversation to which you would have to be presently engaged to fully appreciate. My textual recount does it no justice.

(Sorry for the ridiculous length of this comment)

I’d be happy to spend lots of time overhearing conversations happening at almost any seminary!

Roger Butts
Davenport, Iowa

That being said, I’m pretty familiar with UCC styles of worship. I do attend a UCC seminary, after all. I’m guessing - it’s just a guess mind you - it’ll work for you for a while, but the trail-blazing Scott will emerge sooner or later. :)

Oh, and yes, this is a good thing!

An Aside: The new UCC “Ejector” add is seriously unpopular with more than a few UCC professors here at Lancaster. I just talked with a theology prof. who is constantly jetting back and forth to Cleveland for emergency consultations on the national level, and he said they were actually embarrassing. The point was also made that buying ads on liberal political blogs is unwise and based almost entirely on the assumption that liberal political pundits are actually interested in attending church on Sundays.

There is an interesting UCC conversation going on here at Lancaster that I really wished more Unitarian Universalists could listen in on.

I did mean to note that communion in classes is how the Transylvanian bishop had communion distributed at the UUCF Revival in Washington, for those of my readers who were present.

Shawn: what do you mean by that last sentence?