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	<title>Comments on: Is the M.Div. too much?</title>
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	<link>http://boyinthebands.com/archives/is-the-mdiv-too-much/</link>
	<description>Scott Wells on the practice of Christian faith</description>
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		<title>By: Michelle Murrain</title>
		<link>http://boyinthebands.com/archives/is-the-mdiv-too-much/comment-page-1/#comment-49593</link>
		<dc:creator>Michelle Murrain</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 19 Jan 2009 20:33:24 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>It all depends on how you look at the degree, and the process. If it is all about a means to an end - yeah, just about any degree past a batchelors is probably too much unless you actually manage to land (and forever stay in) a job that requires it. I have a Ph.D. that I used for 10 years (I was an academic), but I certainly don&#039;t need it now. But it has served me well (it&#039;s amazing what the discipline of writing a dissertation teaches you.)

I didn&#039;t stay for my M.Div. in seminary, I left after getting a Certificate in Theological Studies. The price tag on that certificate that I will never use was very high (2 years of lost income and momentum in a career, plus tuition and expenses), but I have no buyer&#039;s remorse. It was one of the best things I&#039;ve ever done for myself. 

And, um, you can start a church and be a pastor whenever you want, without any credentials, as long as you are willing to be non-affiliated, or affiliated with a denomination that doesn&#039;t require an M.Div.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It all depends on how you look at the degree, and the process. If it is all about a means to an end &#8211; yeah, just about any degree past a batchelors is probably too much unless you actually manage to land (and forever stay in) a job that requires it. I have a Ph.D. that I used for 10 years (I was an academic), but I certainly don&#8217;t need it now. But it has served me well (it&#8217;s amazing what the discipline of writing a dissertation teaches you.)</p>
<p>I didn&#8217;t stay for my M.Div. in seminary, I left after getting a Certificate in Theological Studies. The price tag on that certificate that I will never use was very high (2 years of lost income and momentum in a career, plus tuition and expenses), but I have no buyer&#8217;s remorse. It was one of the best things I&#8217;ve ever done for myself. </p>
<p>And, um, you can start a church and be a pastor whenever you want, without any credentials, as long as you are willing to be non-affiliated, or affiliated with a denomination that doesn&#8217;t require an M.Div.</p>
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		<title>By: Colin Bossen</title>
		<link>http://boyinthebands.com/archives/is-the-mdiv-too-much/comment-page-1/#comment-49582</link>
		<dc:creator>Colin Bossen</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 17 Jan 2009 20:31:17 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://boyinthebands.com/?p=2885#comment-49582</guid>
		<description>I suppose that part of the question is: What is education for? I am terrified when I learn that there&#039;s now a whole educational system built around hotel management. It&#039;s not that I have anything against hotel management. My question is, rather, what the heck could you learn in studying for a BA in hotel management that you couldn&#039;t learn on the job? 

I like education and enjoyed my schooling. I think that my M.Div. does make me a better minister. I gained skills through the degree program that I might not have gained elsewhere. As importantly, I had time to study and reflect in seminary that I haven&#039;t had since. I regularly draw upon that study and reflection in my ongoing ministerial work. 

There are other ways I have learned about the ministry too. I learned a lot from my union work and I continue to learn a lot by studying and engaging with my senior colleagues and peers. 

Perhaps the notion that there should be multiple tracks to the ministry isn&#039;t a bad one. If the issue is demonstrating competency and fluency in the tradition then institutions like the fellowship committee aren&#039;t bad ideas. 

Before I close this rather rambling response I should note that in the Ohio Meadville District of UUA we still have something called the Commissioned Lay Leader program. The program trains people for leadership roles within a congregational context. Many CLLs serve small historically Universalist congregations. Others serve as sort of assistant ministers with specific portfolios in larger congregations. My congregation has one and she is a major asset to the community. Like me she is called by the congregation and has a letter of agreement. She is not salaried but does receive some fees for services.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I suppose that part of the question is: What is education for? I am terrified when I learn that there&#8217;s now a whole educational system built around hotel management. It&#8217;s not that I have anything against hotel management. My question is, rather, what the heck could you learn in studying for a BA in hotel management that you couldn&#8217;t learn on the job? </p>
<p>I like education and enjoyed my schooling. I think that my M.Div. does make me a better minister. I gained skills through the degree program that I might not have gained elsewhere. As importantly, I had time to study and reflect in seminary that I haven&#8217;t had since. I regularly draw upon that study and reflection in my ongoing ministerial work. </p>
<p>There are other ways I have learned about the ministry too. I learned a lot from my union work and I continue to learn a lot by studying and engaging with my senior colleagues and peers. </p>
<p>Perhaps the notion that there should be multiple tracks to the ministry isn&#8217;t a bad one. If the issue is demonstrating competency and fluency in the tradition then institutions like the fellowship committee aren&#8217;t bad ideas. </p>
<p>Before I close this rather rambling response I should note that in the Ohio Meadville District of UUA we still have something called the Commissioned Lay Leader program. The program trains people for leadership roles within a congregational context. Many CLLs serve small historically Universalist congregations. Others serve as sort of assistant ministers with specific portfolios in larger congregations. My congregation has one and she is a major asset to the community. Like me she is called by the congregation and has a letter of agreement. She is not salaried but does receive some fees for services.</p>
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		<title>By: Lord Acton</title>
		<link>http://boyinthebands.com/archives/is-the-mdiv-too-much/comment-page-1/#comment-49578</link>
		<dc:creator>Lord Acton</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 16 Jan 2009 21:16:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://boyinthebands.com/?p=2885#comment-49578</guid>
		<description>Too much what?  Money, time, pedantry..... ? 

It&#039;s not just the M.Div ... see here and here for a take on how inefficient, and cruelly unfair, our system of credentialing can be.   Credentialed does not equal qualified, and too often the requirements to earn the credential are only distantly related to the skills required to do the job.  

http://econlog.econlib.org/archives/2007/03/page_one_of_my.html

http://www.cato-unbound.org/2008/10/14/charles-murray/what-justifies-the-stigma-of-not-getting-a-ba/   

Of course you can always start your own church.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Too much what?  Money, time, pedantry&#8230;.. ? </p>
<p>It&#8217;s not just the M.Div &#8230; see here and here for a take on how inefficient, and cruelly unfair, our system of credentialing can be.   Credentialed does not equal qualified, and too often the requirements to earn the credential are only distantly related to the skills required to do the job.  </p>
<p><a href="http://econlog.econlib.org/archives/2007/03/page_one_of_my.html" rel="nofollow">http://econlog.econlib.org/archives/2007/03/page_one_of_my.html</a></p>
<p><a href="http://www.cato-unbound.org/2008/10/14/charles-murray/what-justifies-the-stigma-of-not-getting-a-ba/" rel="nofollow">http://www.cato-unbound.org/2008/10/14/charles-murray/what-justifies-the-stigma-of-not-getting-a-ba/</a>   </p>
<p>Of course you can always start your own church.</p>
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		<title>By: Chutney</title>
		<link>http://boyinthebands.com/archives/is-the-mdiv-too-much/comment-page-1/#comment-49576</link>
		<dc:creator>Chutney</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 16 Jan 2009 05:38:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://boyinthebands.com/?p=2885#comment-49576</guid>
		<description>Here here!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Here here!</p>
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		<title>By: Steve Caldwell</title>
		<link>http://boyinthebands.com/archives/is-the-mdiv-too-much/comment-page-1/#comment-49575</link>
		<dc:creator>Steve Caldwell</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 15 Jan 2009 04:42:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://boyinthebands.com/?p=2885#comment-49575</guid>
		<description>Perhaps we need a pathway for folks who want to be ministers that doesn&#039;t require the expense of the M.Div degree?

I wonder if the credentialing model used for religious educators could be adapted for ministerial professional development.

Of course, this would suggest that we would have differing &quot;levels&quot; of &quot;minister&quot; with differing levels of education -- e.g. no degree ministers, undergraduate degree ministers, and graduate degree ministers.

But this would allow someone to see if  a ministerial calling is a good fit without thousands of dollars in student loan debt.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Perhaps we need a pathway for folks who want to be ministers that doesn&#8217;t require the expense of the M.Div degree?</p>
<p>I wonder if the credentialing model used for religious educators could be adapted for ministerial professional development.</p>
<p>Of course, this would suggest that we would have differing &#8220;levels&#8221; of &#8220;minister&#8221; with differing levels of education &#8212; e.g. no degree ministers, undergraduate degree ministers, and graduate degree ministers.</p>
<p>But this would allow someone to see if  a ministerial calling is a good fit without thousands of dollars in student loan debt.</p>
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		<title>By: Derek</title>
		<link>http://boyinthebands.com/archives/is-the-mdiv-too-much/comment-page-1/#comment-49574</link>
		<dc:creator>Derek</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 14 Jan 2009 18:31:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://boyinthebands.com/?p=2885#comment-49574</guid>
		<description>My M.Div. has been good for me.  But I question if it is the only effective path to quality ministry.  What about less academic programs of mentoring?  What about certificate programs which do not assume that a graduate level education is always an absolute requirement?  Are there cases where congregations see gifts, nurture those gifts, and raise up their own lay-pastor?

The Ohio Universalist Convention had 2 credentials: ordained minister, and licensed to preach.  MANY of their pre-WW2 ministers were school teachers with a license to preach in specific congregations.  That model certainly makes affordable the bi-vocational ministry which small congregations need.  Are we over-professionalizing the vocation of minister?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>My M.Div. has been good for me.  But I question if it is the only effective path to quality ministry.  What about less academic programs of mentoring?  What about certificate programs which do not assume that a graduate level education is always an absolute requirement?  Are there cases where congregations see gifts, nurture those gifts, and raise up their own lay-pastor?</p>
<p>The Ohio Universalist Convention had 2 credentials: ordained minister, and licensed to preach.  MANY of their pre-WW2 ministers were school teachers with a license to preach in specific congregations.  That model certainly makes affordable the bi-vocational ministry which small congregations need.  Are we over-professionalizing the vocation of minister?</p>
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		<title>By: Matthew T.</title>
		<link>http://boyinthebands.com/archives/is-the-mdiv-too-much/comment-page-1/#comment-49573</link>
		<dc:creator>Matthew T.</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 14 Jan 2009 15:11:27 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>Long time reader, first time post-er.  I recently completed an MDiv at a university-based seminary in New England, and immediately found the soft skills I&#039;d developed next-to-useless in a rapidly shrinking job market.  I wasn&#039;t looking to be ordained, and wasn&#039;t necessarily looking to work in parish-based ministry either, but many of those friends who were looking for a pulpit still find themselves jobless or temping in secretarial positions.  I think it&#039;s a different job market and it&#039;s a different world, and I suspect and fear that the model of ministertial education currently in operation is outdated.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Long time reader, first time post-er.  I recently completed an MDiv at a university-based seminary in New England, and immediately found the soft skills I&#8217;d developed next-to-useless in a rapidly shrinking job market.  I wasn&#8217;t looking to be ordained, and wasn&#8217;t necessarily looking to work in parish-based ministry either, but many of those friends who were looking for a pulpit still find themselves jobless or temping in secretarial positions.  I think it&#8217;s a different job market and it&#8217;s a different world, and I suspect and fear that the model of ministertial education currently in operation is outdated.</p>
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		<title>By: Steven R</title>
		<link>http://boyinthebands.com/archives/is-the-mdiv-too-much/comment-page-1/#comment-49572</link>
		<dc:creator>Steven R</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 14 Jan 2009 13:27:02 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>My grandfather did have his doctorate - but left the ministry during ww2 to see if he could do something to support his family.  I suspect the doctorate was a hindrance in getting a job - including ministry (i suspect many congregations would think of it as making the minister more expensive).
There is something to be said for the old fashion Universalist tradition of apprentice ministers - you do your day job and you train under a minister on the weekends until that minister and the state convention thought you were ready to be ordained.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>My grandfather did have his doctorate &#8211; but left the ministry during ww2 to see if he could do something to support his family.  I suspect the doctorate was a hindrance in getting a job &#8211; including ministry (i suspect many congregations would think of it as making the minister more expensive).<br />
There is something to be said for the old fashion Universalist tradition of apprentice ministers &#8211; you do your day job and you train under a minister on the weekends until that minister and the state convention thought you were ready to be ordained.</p>
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